WEBVTT 00:00:01.980 --> 00:00:03.990 align:middle line:84% We're just outside this unassuming building 00:00:03.990 --> 00:00:06.750 align:middle line:84% in Berkeley, California, where a team of 50 people 00:00:06.750 --> 00:00:09.930 align:middle line:84% is working on one of the biggest problems for climate change. 00:00:09.930 --> 00:00:11.970 align:middle line:84% Founded by three Stanford graduates, 00:00:11.970 --> 00:00:14.460 align:middle line:84% Twelve is trying to take captured carbon 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:17.580 align:middle line:84% and repurpose it so that it can re-enter the supply chain 00:00:17.580 --> 00:00:19.530 align:middle line:84% and become the building block for everything 00:00:19.530 --> 00:00:22.098 align:middle line:84% from shoes to your next fancy car. 00:00:22.098 --> 00:00:24.390 align:middle line:84% We're going to speak with Kendra Kuhl, one of the three 00:00:24.390 --> 00:00:26.727 align:middle line:84% co-founders and the chief technology officer. 00:00:26.727 --> 00:00:28.560 align:middle line:84% And she's going to give us a tour of the lab 00:00:28.560 --> 00:00:31.290 align:middle line:84% and just answer our questions about how feasible is this. 00:00:33.683 --> 00:00:35.600 align:middle line:84% Could you explain just in the most basic terms 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:38.120 align:middle line:84% what is it that you've done and what are you aiming to do? 00:00:38.120 --> 00:00:39.890 align:middle line:84% Because when I read it on paper it 00:00:39.890 --> 00:00:42.890 align:middle line:84% sounds just like crazy, ambitious, and perhaps 00:00:42.890 --> 00:00:44.420 align:middle line:90% like too pie in the sky. 00:00:44.420 --> 00:00:46.480 align:middle line:90% It sounds extremely difficult. 00:00:46.480 --> 00:00:48.350 align:middle line:84% So the core technology of the company 00:00:48.350 --> 00:00:52.550 align:middle line:84% is a catalyst that allows us to break apart carbon dioxide 00:00:52.550 --> 00:00:57.530 align:middle line:84% molecules and reform the carbon and oxygen and hydrogen 00:00:57.530 --> 00:00:59.670 align:middle line:90% from water into new compounds. 00:00:59.670 --> 00:01:02.150 align:middle line:84% So we can take carbon dioxide from anywhere. 00:01:02.150 --> 00:01:05.300 align:middle line:84% Instead of that carbon dioxide being emitted to the sky, 00:01:05.300 --> 00:01:08.180 align:middle line:84% transform it back into essential products. 00:01:08.180 --> 00:01:10.880 align:middle line:84% Or we can, if coupled to direct air capture, 00:01:10.880 --> 00:01:13.610 align:middle line:84% suck that carbon out of the air and then make it 00:01:13.610 --> 00:01:15.400 align:middle line:90% into something useful again. 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:18.650 align:middle line:84% The idea of reusing the carbon we've already extracted 00:01:18.650 --> 00:01:22.100 align:middle line:84% is a key part of the circular economy, a grand hope 00:01:22.100 --> 00:01:25.530 align:middle line:84% that society can re-engineer the way goods are designed, 00:01:25.530 --> 00:01:27.920 align:middle line:90% manufactured, and recycled. 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:30.770 align:middle line:84% The concept is being embraced by some of the world's largest 00:01:30.770 --> 00:01:32.533 align:middle line:84% companies, including Apple, which 00:01:32.533 --> 00:01:34.700 align:middle line:84% says that it hopes to make all of its products using 00:01:34.700 --> 00:01:37.760 align:middle line:84% recycled materials; and Ford, which is already building 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:41.930 align:middle line:84% 3D printed car components out of what it calls waste powder. 00:01:41.930 --> 00:01:44.090 align:middle line:84% As the late architect Buckminster Fuller 00:01:44.090 --> 00:01:47.450 align:middle line:84% once said: "Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not 00:01:47.450 --> 00:01:48.410 align:middle line:90% harvesting. 00:01:48.410 --> 00:01:50.540 align:middle line:84% We allow them to disperse because we've 00:01:50.540 --> 00:01:52.980 align:middle line:90% been ignorant of their value." 00:01:52.980 --> 00:01:54.560 align:middle line:84% So if it's such an important idea, 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.215 align:middle line:84% why aren't there hundreds of start-ups trying to do this? 00:01:57.215 --> 00:01:58.490 align:middle line:90% I think it is hard. 00:01:58.490 --> 00:02:02.240 align:middle line:84% The other inputs are renewable electricity and water. 00:02:02.240 --> 00:02:05.870 align:middle line:84% And so we are reliant on the growing impact 00:02:05.870 --> 00:02:09.530 align:middle line:84% of renewable electricity on decarbonising our grid 00:02:09.530 --> 00:02:13.415 align:middle line:84% in order to really transform the CO2 emissions. 00:02:13.415 --> 00:02:16.310 align:middle line:84% Earlier this month, you had your first series A funding round. 00:02:16.310 --> 00:02:18.050 align:middle line:90% I think you raised $57m. 00:02:18.050 --> 00:02:22.100 align:middle line:84% Where are you now in terms of the proven technology? 00:02:22.100 --> 00:02:23.990 align:middle line:84% So today in our lab we have a system 00:02:23.990 --> 00:02:26.840 align:middle line:84% that does kilograms per day transformation of carbon 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:27.710 align:middle line:90% dioxide. 00:02:27.710 --> 00:02:29.180 align:middle line:84% We want to go up to tonnes per day. 00:02:31.330 --> 00:02:33.120 align:middle line:84% OK, so show me what we have here, Kendra. 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:33.620 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:02:33.620 --> 00:02:37.340 align:middle line:84% This is the system that we use to deposit that catalyst 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:39.950 align:middle line:84% and make a layer onto a polymer electrolyte membrane. 00:02:39.950 --> 00:02:43.062 align:middle line:84% And then that's what goes into our system to do the carbon 00:02:43.062 --> 00:02:44.020 align:middle line:90% dioxide transformation. 00:02:44.020 --> 00:02:47.180 align:middle line:84% So sorry, is this an additive manufacturing type thing? 00:02:47.180 --> 00:02:49.520 align:middle line:84% Yeah, similar, but super small scale. 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:52.200 align:middle line:84% The layer that we're depositing is much thinner. 00:02:52.200 --> 00:02:52.700 align:middle line:90% How thin? 00:02:52.700 --> 00:02:54.590 align:middle line:84% Are we talking about like hair-length thin? 00:02:54.590 --> 00:02:56.182 align:middle line:84% I can't tell you exactly how thin... 00:02:56.182 --> 00:02:56.682 align:middle line:90% Oh, really? 00:02:56.682 --> 00:02:56.990 align:middle line:90% Oh, that's proprietary. 00:02:56.990 --> 00:02:59.130 align:middle line:84% ...because that's part of our core technology. 00:02:59.130 --> 00:02:59.630 align:middle line:90% But... 00:03:01.850 --> 00:03:03.845 align:middle line:90% ...it's thin! 00:03:03.845 --> 00:03:06.770 align:middle line:84% This does look a lot like a 3D printer in terms of how it's... 00:03:06.770 --> 00:03:10.760 align:middle line:84% Yeah, we have a solution containing catalyst, additives. 00:03:10.760 --> 00:03:13.280 align:middle line:84% And then it's just a solvent that those other components 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:14.720 align:middle line:90% are dispersed in. 00:03:14.720 --> 00:03:17.660 align:middle line:84% And then that's fed into one of these nozzles 00:03:17.660 --> 00:03:20.048 align:middle line:84% and then forced down by an air stream onto the substrate. 00:03:20.048 --> 00:03:22.340 align:middle line:84% And the solvent dries, and it leaves behind the solids. 00:03:22.340 --> 00:03:25.770 align:middle line:84% But you can already see we can coat really large areas. 00:03:25.770 --> 00:03:26.270 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:03:26.270 --> 00:03:29.540 align:middle line:84% And so it's totally unclear to me as to what happens next. 00:03:29.540 --> 00:03:31.542 align:middle line:84% So once you've got this coating, then what? 00:03:31.542 --> 00:03:35.450 align:middle line:84% Ultimately, we can put this into a cell that's 00:03:35.450 --> 00:03:37.730 align:middle line:90% as big as this deposition area. 00:03:37.730 --> 00:03:39.830 align:middle line:90% At scale, is this machine... 00:03:39.830 --> 00:03:42.590 align:middle line:84% is much, much larger, or do you have many of these machines? 00:03:42.590 --> 00:03:44.390 align:middle line:90% I think it's a different layout. 00:03:44.390 --> 00:03:48.380 align:middle line:84% So more of a roller conveyor belt type 00:03:48.380 --> 00:03:51.500 align:middle line:84% of process, more continuous production. 00:03:51.500 --> 00:03:55.470 align:middle line:84% This is a relatively small system, to be honest. 00:03:55.470 --> 00:03:58.160 align:middle line:84% You can make this as big as your whole room 00:03:58.160 --> 00:03:59.450 align:middle line:90% or your whole facility. 00:03:59.450 --> 00:04:02.210 align:middle line:84% I mean, I think technology gives us options. 00:04:02.210 --> 00:04:03.590 align:middle line:90% And so we have choices. 00:04:03.590 --> 00:04:07.040 align:middle line:84% And so we can choose to do something about climate change 00:04:07.040 --> 00:04:09.290 align:middle line:84% because we have technology like this. 00:04:09.290 --> 00:04:09.920 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:04:09.920 --> 00:04:12.942 align:middle line:84% So we're not doomed, or we might be doomed. 00:04:12.942 --> 00:04:14.150 align:middle line:90% Or you hope we're not doomed. 00:04:14.150 --> 00:04:16.079 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I don't think we're doomed. 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:19.339 align:middle line:84% I mean, I think some of the beauty of the solution 00:04:19.339 --> 00:04:21.410 align:middle line:84% is that it doesn't require you to be 00:04:21.410 --> 00:04:25.955 align:middle line:84% a believer in carbon dioxide being an ill or not 00:04:25.955 --> 00:04:27.530 align:middle line:90% and causing climate change. 00:04:27.530 --> 00:04:30.540 align:middle line:84% We aim to be cost-competitive at scale. 00:04:30.540 --> 00:04:34.070 align:middle line:84% And so there won't be an economic cost 00:04:34.070 --> 00:04:38.260 align:middle line:90% to using CO2-made materials. 00:04:38.260 --> 00:04:40.790 align:middle line:84% The other thing we should look at is the actual prototype. 00:04:40.790 --> 00:04:43.310 align:middle line:84% This can transform kilogrammes per day... 00:04:43.310 --> 00:04:44.280 align:middle line:90% Oh, really? 00:04:44.280 --> 00:04:44.645 align:middle line:90% ...of carbon dioxide. 00:04:44.645 --> 00:04:45.770 align:middle line:84% You do a prototype that's doing that? 00:04:45.770 --> 00:04:46.190 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:04:46.190 --> 00:04:46.690 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:04:46.690 --> 00:04:49.940 align:middle line:84% One of the advantages of these types of systems is that they 00:04:49.940 --> 00:04:51.950 align:middle line:90% are kind of like... 00:04:51.950 --> 00:04:53.390 align:middle line:90% kind of just run on their own. 00:04:53.390 --> 00:04:54.845 align:middle line:90% Like you turn it on and it goes. 00:04:54.845 --> 00:04:55.845 align:middle line:90% It is like a dishwasher! 00:04:55.845 --> 00:04:58.370 align:middle line:84% It's like a dishwasher, literally. 00:04:58.370 --> 00:05:01.820 align:middle line:84% You don't have to be tweaking things or tending things. 00:05:01.820 --> 00:05:04.580 align:middle line:84% Every three months you have to replace a filter but it's 00:05:04.580 --> 00:05:06.038 align:middle line:90% not like rocket science. 00:05:06.038 --> 00:05:06.830 align:middle line:90% Anyone could do it. 00:05:06.830 --> 00:05:09.500 align:middle line:84% Right, I think anyone could replace the filter. 00:05:09.500 --> 00:05:12.530 align:middle line:84% So yeah, the next scale from here 00:05:12.530 --> 00:05:14.930 align:middle line:84% would be kind of a couple of shipping 00:05:14.930 --> 00:05:18.530 align:middle line:84% containers' worth of volume, but probably not in a shipping 00:05:18.530 --> 00:05:21.470 align:middle line:90% container, probably a skid. 00:05:21.470 --> 00:05:25.820 align:middle line:84% And it would look like a scaled up version of this, 00:05:25.820 --> 00:05:26.570 align:middle line:90% essentially. 00:05:26.570 --> 00:05:32.090 align:middle line:84% But it's a little bit like a chemical plant, but quiet, 00:05:32.090 --> 00:05:34.270 align:middle line:84% operating at ambient temperature, 00:05:34.270 --> 00:05:38.470 align:middle line:84% and no kind of smells or fumes or anything 00:05:38.470 --> 00:05:41.680 align:middle line:84% that you might associate with a typical chemicals plant. 00:05:44.370 --> 00:05:48.360 align:middle line:84% This almost looks like a caricature of an actual thing. 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:50.396 align:middle line:84% Mad scientist lab or something, right? 00:05:50.396 --> 00:05:52.710 align:middle line:84% Yeah, yeah, what are we looking at here, Kendra? 00:05:52.710 --> 00:05:55.380 align:middle line:84% Yeah, so to develop our catalysts 00:05:55.380 --> 00:05:58.200 align:middle line:84% that transform carbon dioxide we've done a lot of testing 00:05:58.200 --> 00:05:59.490 align:middle line:90% and optimization. 00:05:59.490 --> 00:06:01.320 align:middle line:84% The stand is designed to allow us 00:06:01.320 --> 00:06:05.580 align:middle line:84% to control the input of carbon dioxide, water, electricity, 00:06:05.580 --> 00:06:09.390 align:middle line:84% and then measure what's the energy utilisation that we're 00:06:09.390 --> 00:06:12.480 align:middle line:84% getting out of the cell, what's the temperature, what's 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:15.395 align:middle line:84% kind of the optimal operating conditions. 00:06:15.395 --> 00:06:17.040 align:middle line:84% So you're sort of tweaking the inputs, 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:19.570 align:middle line:84% running the same process and seeing what the outputs are? 00:06:19.570 --> 00:06:20.070 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:06:20.070 --> 00:06:25.320 align:middle line:84% So we're iterating as rapidly as possible on the conditions, 00:06:25.320 --> 00:06:28.230 align:middle line:84% the materials, and then also the cell hardware 00:06:28.230 --> 00:06:30.300 align:middle line:84% to really achieve the performance 00:06:30.300 --> 00:06:31.660 align:middle line:90% that we're looking for. 00:06:31.660 --> 00:06:33.160 align:middle line:90% This is an artificial tree. 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:35.130 align:middle line:84% OK, so describe what an artificial tree 00:06:35.130 --> 00:06:38.410 align:middle line:84% is because the concept, mind boggling. 00:06:38.410 --> 00:06:38.910 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:06:38.910 --> 00:06:41.700 align:middle line:84% Think if a tree takes carbon dioxide from the air, 00:06:41.700 --> 00:06:43.680 align:middle line:84% water from the ground, and sunlight 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.860 align:middle line:84% as the source of energy, and it makes carbon dioxide 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:48.180 align:middle line:90% into sugar. 00:06:48.180 --> 00:06:51.480 align:middle line:84% Our devices are similar because they take carbon dioxide 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:54.780 align:middle line:84% and water from the inputs that we're feeding to them, 00:06:54.780 --> 00:06:57.240 align:middle line:84% plus energy in the form of electricity 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:01.800 align:middle line:84% and then can transform that carbon dioxide into not sugar, 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.133 align:middle line:84% but other kind of intermediate products. 00:07:04.133 --> 00:07:05.550 align:middle line:84% So this might be a silly question. 00:07:05.550 --> 00:07:08.672 align:middle line:84% But like decades from now, if the Brazilian rainforest is 00:07:08.672 --> 00:07:10.880 align:middle line:84% like continue to be reduced at the rate it's been cut 00:07:10.880 --> 00:07:12.450 align:middle line:90% in the last 30 years... 00:07:12.450 --> 00:07:15.190 align:middle line:84% I mean, I don't want to in any way say we can make up for that 00:07:15.190 --> 00:07:16.020 align:middle line:90% and that's OK. 00:07:16.020 --> 00:07:18.150 align:middle line:84% But is it just like more and more of these 00:07:18.150 --> 00:07:19.740 align:middle line:90% will end up doing the work? 00:07:19.740 --> 00:07:22.140 align:middle line:84% Like, are we having more and more artificial trees 00:07:22.140 --> 00:07:24.030 align:middle line:90% in the absence of real ones? 00:07:24.030 --> 00:07:25.960 align:middle line:84% I mean, the energy has to come from somewhere. 00:07:25.960 --> 00:07:27.770 align:middle line:84% So the energy here can come from the sun 00:07:27.770 --> 00:07:30.090 align:middle line:84% when we couple it to solar panels. 00:07:30.090 --> 00:07:34.050 align:middle line:84% But I would say trees provide a lot more benefits than just 00:07:34.050 --> 00:07:35.530 align:middle line:90% CO2 mitigation, right? 00:07:35.530 --> 00:07:36.930 align:middle line:90% I mean, it's a whole ecosystem. 00:07:36.930 --> 00:07:39.702 align:middle line:84% This is obviously a piece of metal. 00:07:39.702 --> 00:07:40.410 align:middle line:90% So I would not... 00:07:40.410 --> 00:07:41.895 align:middle line:90% I would not trade a tree. 00:07:41.895 --> 00:07:43.285 align:middle line:90% OK, you'd prefer real trees. 00:07:43.285 --> 00:07:45.780 align:middle line:84% I'd prefer we keep all the real trees 00:07:45.780 --> 00:07:48.270 align:middle line:84% and have these systems in addition to that. 00:07:48.270 --> 00:07:49.670 align:middle line:90% Yeah.