WEBVTT 00:00:02.135 --> 00:00:04.580 align:middle line:84% Trial begins at the Vatican today of a Roman Catholic 00:00:04.580 --> 00:00:07.295 align:middle line:84% cardinal who used to be a close ally of Pope Francis. 00:00:22.235 --> 00:00:26.030 align:middle line:84% The Vatican now says that it lost a huge amount of money. 00:00:26.030 --> 00:00:30.920 align:middle line:84% The Vatican is accusing some outside consultants, fund 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:32.750 align:middle line:90% managers, of defrauding it. 00:00:32.750 --> 00:00:34.880 align:middle line:84% And they're also accusing some officials 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:37.760 align:middle line:84% of having conspired with these outside consultants 00:00:37.760 --> 00:00:39.895 align:middle line:90% to make that happen. 00:00:39.895 --> 00:00:45.080 align:middle line:84% The last time the Church tried a Cardinal for financial crimes 00:00:45.080 --> 00:00:46.310 align:middle line:90% was in the 1730s. 00:00:54.702 --> 00:00:56.160 align:middle line:84% Whenever we asked for documentation 00:00:56.160 --> 00:00:57.650 align:middle line:90% it wasn't available. 00:00:57.650 --> 00:01:00.020 align:middle line:84% Now with hindsight I can say that maybe 00:01:00.020 --> 00:01:02.870 align:middle line:84% at that moment in time we had come across something 00:01:02.870 --> 00:01:04.895 align:middle line:90% we shouldn't have seen. 00:01:04.895 --> 00:01:08.840 align:middle line:84% I was talking to a source who told me 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:12.620 align:middle line:84% in the Vatican the important thing is not who you know, 00:01:12.620 --> 00:01:15.350 align:middle line:84% but it's what you know about who you know. 00:01:29.905 --> 00:01:33.580 align:middle line:84% This is a story about the difficulty 00:01:33.580 --> 00:01:37.120 align:middle line:84% in reconciling an ancient institution 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:41.380 align:middle line:84% with modern transparency and modern standards. 00:02:09.530 --> 00:02:13.160 align:middle line:84% The future of the Church depends on the right decisions 00:02:13.160 --> 00:02:14.540 align:middle line:90% being taken. 00:02:14.540 --> 00:02:18.150 align:middle line:84% I think of all the people that go to church on a Sunday, 00:02:18.150 --> 00:02:21.790 align:middle line:84% and put in their little coin in the collection. 00:02:21.790 --> 00:02:23.070 align:middle line:90% Some of them are poor people. 00:02:23.070 --> 00:02:28.055 align:middle line:84% They're depriving themselves of something important. 00:02:28.055 --> 00:02:31.170 align:middle line:84% Well, I think every Catholic who reads a story like this ends up 00:02:31.170 --> 00:02:33.003 align:middle line:84% caring, because in the end they want to know 00:02:33.003 --> 00:02:34.650 align:middle line:90% where their money is going. 00:02:34.650 --> 00:02:36.450 align:middle line:84% Catholics expect, and rightly so, 00:02:36.450 --> 00:02:39.090 align:middle line:84% the Church to hold itself to a much higher moral standard 00:02:39.090 --> 00:02:42.270 align:middle line:84% than a corporation, or an NGO, or even a government. 00:02:42.270 --> 00:02:44.785 align:middle line:84% They expect a higher level of accountability. 00:02:44.785 --> 00:02:47.160 align:middle line:84% And I think the Church is learning some very hard lessons 00:02:47.160 --> 00:02:48.870 align:middle line:90% about transparency right now. 00:03:14.177 --> 00:03:15.010 align:middle line:90% People were stunned. 00:03:15.010 --> 00:03:18.010 align:middle line:84% This was one of the most important people 00:03:18.010 --> 00:03:21.850 align:middle line:84% in the entire Vatican being forced 00:03:21.850 --> 00:03:24.090 align:middle line:84% to step down in a way which has just not happened. 00:03:58.110 --> 00:04:02.280 align:middle line:84% Cardinal Becciu has denied any wrongdoing. 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:06.287 align:middle line:84% He says he welcomes the chance to defend himself and prove 00:04:06.287 --> 00:04:08.370 align:middle line:84% that these allegations which were made against him 00:04:08.370 --> 00:04:09.090 align:middle line:90% are false. 00:04:09.090 --> 00:04:12.420 align:middle line:84% Becciu says that there's a plot against him, 00:04:12.420 --> 00:04:15.180 align:middle line:84% that there are people conspiring to bring them down. 00:04:42.825 --> 00:04:47.640 align:middle line:84% You have a fund manager called Raffaele Mincione, used to work 00:04:47.640 --> 00:04:49.290 align:middle line:90% at various investment banks. 00:04:49.290 --> 00:04:51.450 align:middle line:84% Set up a fund management company. 00:04:51.450 --> 00:04:56.040 align:middle line:84% That company was the company which these Vatican officials 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:57.470 align:middle line:90% decided to give money to. 00:04:57.470 --> 00:04:59.220 align:middle line:84% I don't think we'd ever written about them 00:04:59.220 --> 00:05:00.630 align:middle line:90% before in the Financial Times. 00:05:00.630 --> 00:05:02.955 align:middle line:84% I sort of was, like, who are these guys? 00:05:02.955 --> 00:05:06.000 align:middle line:84% The purchase of a building, per se, is not suspicious or weird, 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.830 align:middle line:84% but the way this one was purchased 00:05:07.830 --> 00:05:10.385 align:middle line:90% was, well, very unusual. 00:05:10.385 --> 00:05:12.330 align:middle line:84% This was a very strange transaction, 00:05:12.330 --> 00:05:16.710 align:middle line:84% because this building was bought for £129m in 2012. 00:05:16.710 --> 00:05:20.970 align:middle line:84% Flash forward to 2014, the value of the building the month 00:05:20.970 --> 00:05:24.750 align:middle line:84% before the Vatican buys its stake in the building 00:05:24.750 --> 00:05:28.305 align:middle line:84% through the fund, is hugely increased. 00:05:28.305 --> 00:05:30.150 align:middle line:84% I don't think the way a lot of this business 00:05:30.150 --> 00:05:32.790 align:middle line:84% has been conducted with the Vatican would pass the smell 00:05:32.790 --> 00:05:35.052 align:middle line:84% test for any investment adviser in London. 00:05:35.052 --> 00:05:37.260 align:middle line:84% Certainly no one I know who works in Berkeley Square, 00:05:37.260 --> 00:05:40.020 align:middle line:84% and a few of these guys involved in this deal do, would say, oh, 00:05:40.020 --> 00:05:41.978 align:middle line:84% yeah, this looks like a normal deal. 00:05:41.978 --> 00:05:43.770 align:middle line:84% If you're walking down the street in London 00:05:43.770 --> 00:05:45.870 align:middle line:84% past that building, and you were, like, 00:05:45.870 --> 00:05:48.420 align:middle line:84% oh, I wonder who owns that, and you went to the British Land 00:05:48.420 --> 00:05:51.720 align:middle line:84% Registry, it would be impossible to know that the Vatican owned 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:52.530 align:middle line:90% that building. 00:05:52.530 --> 00:05:56.068 align:middle line:84% It's held through a Jersey company, which is then 00:05:56.068 --> 00:05:58.110 align:middle line:84% owned by another Jersey company, which then owned 00:05:58.110 --> 00:05:59.820 align:middle line:84% by another Jersey company, and then 00:05:59.820 --> 00:06:02.760 align:middle line:84% eventually, shares in that Jersey company 00:06:02.760 --> 00:06:05.480 align:middle line:90% were owned by a Luxembourg fund. 00:06:21.450 --> 00:06:25.590 align:middle line:84% What happened in 2018, according to the Vatican, 00:06:25.590 --> 00:06:28.620 align:middle line:84% they decided we need to get out of this London property. 00:06:28.620 --> 00:06:30.990 align:middle line:90% We need to get out of this fund. 00:06:30.990 --> 00:06:32.850 align:middle line:84% On the back of their £200m investment, 00:06:32.850 --> 00:06:35.830 align:middle line:84% they ended up paying around £350m for this building. 00:06:35.830 --> 00:06:38.250 align:middle line:84% So it doesn't appear to have been a great bit of business. 00:06:38.250 --> 00:06:40.350 align:middle line:84% And the way they decided to convey ownership 00:06:40.350 --> 00:06:42.540 align:middle line:84% of the building was to bring in another actor 00:06:42.540 --> 00:06:45.135 align:middle line:84% and another shell company in Luxembourg. 00:06:45.135 --> 00:06:49.440 align:middle line:84% The person who arrives at the Vatican, who 00:06:49.440 --> 00:06:53.850 align:middle line:84% is introduced to them as the man who will come in and solve all 00:06:53.850 --> 00:06:57.210 align:middle line:84% of their problems, is an Italian businessman living in London 00:06:57.210 --> 00:06:58.650 align:middle line:90% called Gianluigi Torzi. 00:06:58.650 --> 00:07:03.360 align:middle line:84% Gianluigi Torzi is not the typical profile 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:06.540 align:middle line:90% of Vatican troubleshooter. 00:07:06.540 --> 00:07:10.380 align:middle line:84% He had been flagged on an anti-money laundering database. 00:07:10.380 --> 00:07:15.960 align:middle line:84% This very hastily arranged contract between Torzi, 00:07:15.960 --> 00:07:20.070 align:middle line:84% Mincione's fund, and the Holy See, the Secretary of State 00:07:20.070 --> 00:07:26.280 align:middle line:84% of the Holy See, and it's signed by Alberto Perlasca, who 00:07:26.280 --> 00:07:27.990 align:middle line:90% is the number two to Becciu. 00:07:27.990 --> 00:07:30.432 align:middle line:84% And that's how the property is transferred back 00:07:30.432 --> 00:07:31.140 align:middle line:90% into the Vatican. 00:07:31.140 --> 00:07:36.060 align:middle line:84% They've effectively signed over full control of a building 00:07:36.060 --> 00:07:39.810 align:middle line:84% worth hundreds of millions to a man they just met. 00:07:39.810 --> 00:07:44.250 align:middle line:84% The Vatican now allege it was a fraud, that basically this 00:07:44.250 --> 00:07:48.630 align:middle line:84% was a scam perpetrated against the Vatican, which ended up 00:07:48.630 --> 00:07:52.500 align:middle line:84% with them having to pay off Torzi to sort of get 00:07:52.500 --> 00:07:54.450 align:middle line:90% him to give the building back. 00:07:54.450 --> 00:07:56.940 align:middle line:84% Both Raffaele Mincione and Gianluigi Torzi 00:07:56.940 --> 00:07:58.500 align:middle line:90% deny any wrongdoing. 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:02.850 align:middle line:84% They say they acted entirely properly, correctly, 00:08:02.850 --> 00:08:04.725 align:middle line:84% in accordance with the wishes of the Vatican. 00:08:50.390 --> 00:08:53.030 align:middle line:84% The key question in all of this is, 00:08:53.030 --> 00:08:56.390 align:middle line:84% how much did any of the people actually, 00:08:56.390 --> 00:08:59.552 align:middle line:84% giving certain amounts of authority to this deal, 00:08:59.552 --> 00:09:01.010 align:middle line:84% how much did they really understand 00:09:01.010 --> 00:09:03.060 align:middle line:90% about what was going on? 00:09:03.060 --> 00:09:05.300 align:middle line:84% I mean, anyone who's been to the Vatican 00:09:05.300 --> 00:09:08.490 align:middle line:84% will instantly be able to see how small it actually is. 00:09:08.490 --> 00:09:12.500 align:middle line:84% This is the last absolute monarchy in Europe. 00:09:12.500 --> 00:09:16.760 align:middle line:84% It's a tiny place with a very, very small number of citizens, 00:09:16.760 --> 00:09:18.170 align:middle line:90% around 1,000. 00:09:18.170 --> 00:09:20.030 align:middle line:84% So the way the Vatican is structured 00:09:20.030 --> 00:09:22.340 align:middle line:90% is quite hard to understand. 00:09:22.340 --> 00:09:26.090 align:middle line:84% You have the Pope who is absolute monarch, 00:09:26.090 --> 00:09:28.160 align:middle line:84% has supreme authority, and then you 00:09:28.160 --> 00:09:30.110 align:middle line:84% have various figures underneath the Pope. 00:09:30.110 --> 00:09:32.630 align:middle line:84% The case of the Secretary of State, 00:09:32.630 --> 00:09:35.090 align:middle line:84% who is the head of the Secretariat of State, that is 00:09:35.090 --> 00:09:37.670 align:middle line:90% the prime minister of the Pope. 00:09:37.670 --> 00:09:40.190 align:middle line:84% And so, below the Secretary of State 00:09:40.190 --> 00:09:43.820 align:middle line:84% you have a figure called the Substitute, and in that case, 00:09:43.820 --> 00:09:47.390 align:middle line:84% that was cardinal, then archbishop, but now 00:09:47.390 --> 00:09:50.540 align:middle line:90% Cardinal Becciu. 00:09:50.540 --> 00:09:54.170 align:middle line:84% The Sostituto basically has daily contact with the Pope. 00:09:54.170 --> 00:09:57.680 align:middle line:84% He's the liaison between the Curia and the Holy Father. 00:09:57.680 --> 00:10:01.190 align:middle line:84% He is basically the de facto papal chief of staff. 00:10:01.190 --> 00:10:03.470 align:middle line:84% It's Becciu who would have been giving Pope Francis's 00:10:03.470 --> 00:10:04.473 align:middle line:90% daily briefings. 00:10:04.473 --> 00:10:06.140 align:middle line:84% It's Becciu who would have been the sort 00:10:06.140 --> 00:10:09.050 align:middle line:84% of first and last opinion on anything that the Pope heard. 00:10:31.305 --> 00:10:33.702 align:middle line:84% So when you talk about the Secretary of State 00:10:33.702 --> 00:10:35.910 align:middle line:84% training its own and having its own in-house culture, 00:10:35.910 --> 00:10:39.780 align:middle line:84% Cardinal Becciu really is the most typical version of that. 00:10:39.780 --> 00:10:42.550 align:middle line:84% He trained to be a Vatican diplomat. 00:10:42.550 --> 00:10:45.090 align:middle line:84% He served in nunciatures in Africa, 00:10:45.090 --> 00:10:46.470 align:middle line:90% in different parts of the world. 00:10:46.470 --> 00:10:47.700 align:middle line:90% He then was called back to Rome. 00:10:47.700 --> 00:10:49.325 align:middle line:84% He worked his way up through the curial 00:10:49.325 --> 00:10:51.483 align:middle line:84% ranks to eventually become the number two 00:10:51.483 --> 00:10:53.400 align:middle line:84% in his own department, and arguably the number 00:10:53.400 --> 00:10:55.470 align:middle line:90% two in the entire Vatican. 00:10:55.470 --> 00:10:59.130 align:middle line:84% That he was, and I don't mean this necessarily disparagingly, 00:10:59.130 --> 00:11:02.470 align:middle line:90% but very much the company man. 00:11:02.470 --> 00:11:04.590 align:middle line:84% I remember we invited him to our office one day 00:11:04.590 --> 00:11:06.180 align:middle line:84% to explain how his office worked, 00:11:06.180 --> 00:11:08.490 align:middle line:84% and he told us he had 40 people writing 00:11:08.490 --> 00:11:12.130 align:middle line:84% the speeches for the Pope in different languages. 00:11:12.130 --> 00:11:15.930 align:middle line:84% If you have that sort of responsibility and power 00:11:15.930 --> 00:11:17.760 align:middle line:84% it's very easy to direct a person 00:11:17.760 --> 00:11:18.930 align:middle line:90% in a particular direction. 00:11:22.205 --> 00:11:26.360 align:middle line:84% Pope Francis, known as a reformer, 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:31.220 align:middle line:84% he starts signalling the types of financial reforms 00:11:31.220 --> 00:11:33.920 align:middle line:84% that he's going to do by bringing 00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:34.993 align:middle line:90% in some key individuals. 00:11:34.993 --> 00:11:37.160 align:middle line:84% And one of those individuals is the auditor general, 00:11:37.160 --> 00:11:41.750 align:middle line:84% who is Libero Milone, who was a former Deloitte auditor. 00:11:41.750 --> 00:11:45.290 align:middle line:84% And he was brought in to check the books, 00:11:45.290 --> 00:11:48.200 align:middle line:84% to do a sort of forensic audit of all 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:50.210 align:middle line:84% of the different complicated nooks 00:11:50.210 --> 00:11:53.405 align:middle line:90% and crannies in the Vatican. 00:11:53.405 --> 00:11:54.890 align:middle line:84% I met the Pope for the first time 00:11:54.890 --> 00:11:57.380 align:middle line:84% a few days after my appointment, and he told me 00:11:57.380 --> 00:12:01.080 align:middle line:84% that he wanted to be constantly informed of what we're doing. 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.690 align:middle line:84% So that we would maybe have a meeting every month 00:12:03.690 --> 00:12:05.270 align:middle line:90% or five weeks or so. 00:12:05.270 --> 00:12:08.910 align:middle line:84% But he also said one thing at every meeting I attended. 00:12:08.910 --> 00:12:11.300 align:middle line:84% He would say to me, Dr Milone, do you still 00:12:11.300 --> 00:12:13.910 align:middle line:90% feel independent today? 00:12:13.910 --> 00:12:15.590 align:middle line:84% Now I ask myself the question, why 00:12:15.590 --> 00:12:18.545 align:middle line:84% did he ask me that question at that time? 00:12:18.545 --> 00:12:22.010 align:middle line:84% If you have people coming in, outsiders, 00:12:22.010 --> 00:12:25.010 align:middle line:84% who are now acting with the authority of the Pope, 00:12:25.010 --> 00:12:27.838 align:middle line:84% and can say, you need to open up your books, 00:12:27.838 --> 00:12:29.630 align:middle line:84% you need to show me what you're doing here, 00:12:29.630 --> 00:12:31.100 align:middle line:90% like, what's this invoice? 00:12:31.100 --> 00:12:32.600 align:middle line:90% What did you spend this on? 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:35.095 align:middle line:84% It sort of starts to ruffle some feathers. 00:12:35.095 --> 00:12:36.470 align:middle line:84% We were working in an environment 00:12:36.470 --> 00:12:43.010 align:middle line:84% which had no financial culture, and that the people who 00:12:43.010 --> 00:12:46.880 align:middle line:84% have been managing most of the issues were clerics. 00:12:51.570 --> 00:12:56.040 align:middle line:84% You had priests with no financial training 00:12:56.040 --> 00:13:00.630 align:middle line:84% moving hundreds of millions of euros around the world, 00:13:00.630 --> 00:13:02.280 align:middle line:84% investing in this, investing in that, 00:13:02.280 --> 00:13:05.040 align:middle line:84% handing over to different fund managers. 00:13:05.040 --> 00:13:08.610 align:middle line:84% And that is quite a strange situation. 00:13:08.610 --> 00:13:14.220 align:middle line:84% There are endowments across the world, vast endowments managing 00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:15.420 align:middle line:90% billions of dollars. 00:13:15.420 --> 00:13:19.440 align:middle line:84% And for the most part, including sovereign wealth funds, 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:23.190 align:middle line:84% they have professional structures in place, 00:13:23.190 --> 00:13:26.610 align:middle line:84% and checks and accountability, to make sure 00:13:26.610 --> 00:13:29.820 align:middle line:84% that the money is being invested in the right way. 00:13:29.820 --> 00:13:33.210 align:middle line:84% So they have a team of professionals 00:13:33.210 --> 00:13:35.160 align:middle line:84% who sit on a board, who make sure 00:13:35.160 --> 00:13:38.130 align:middle line:84% whenever they invest in anything it goes through a process, 00:13:38.130 --> 00:13:39.540 align:middle line:90% they sign off on it. 00:13:39.540 --> 00:13:42.507 align:middle line:84% They check the money is going to the right place, 00:13:42.507 --> 00:13:44.340 align:middle line:84% that they're not going to have any problems. 00:13:49.665 --> 00:13:52.350 align:middle line:84% There was this move for a general audit 00:13:52.350 --> 00:13:55.320 align:middle line:84% of all curial finances that wanted to be brought in, 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:56.310 align:middle line:90% and that was stopped. 00:13:56.310 --> 00:13:58.890 align:middle line:84% And it was stopped by Cardinal Angelo Becciu, 00:13:58.890 --> 00:14:01.350 align:middle line:84% who is now become a sort of protagonist 00:14:01.350 --> 00:14:02.640 align:middle line:90% in the current scandal. 00:14:02.640 --> 00:14:05.550 align:middle line:84% That he was the one who signed the memo cancelling this 00:14:05.550 --> 00:14:08.498 align:middle line:84% Vatican-wide audit, which he got the Pope to approve after 00:14:08.498 --> 00:14:11.040 align:middle line:84% the fact, but at the time it was issued it's not clear he had 00:14:11.040 --> 00:14:14.040 align:middle line:90% the legal authority to do this. 00:14:14.040 --> 00:14:15.630 align:middle line:84% The Vatican's former chief auditor 00:14:15.630 --> 00:14:19.020 align:middle line:84% says he was forced to resign after investigating secret bank 00:14:19.020 --> 00:14:20.070 align:middle line:90% accounts. 00:14:20.070 --> 00:14:23.520 align:middle line:84% Libero Milone was hired by Pope Francis in 2015. 00:14:23.520 --> 00:14:25.500 align:middle line:84% He tells the Financial Times he was 00:14:25.500 --> 00:14:27.930 align:middle line:84% getting too close to information the Vatican 00:14:27.930 --> 00:14:30.320 align:middle line:90% wanted to be kept secret. 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:33.567 align:middle line:84% We were given a list of investments 00:14:33.567 --> 00:14:35.400 align:middle line:84% to the tune of several hundreds of millions. 00:14:35.400 --> 00:14:36.820 align:middle line:90% We asked for details. 00:14:36.820 --> 00:14:39.030 align:middle line:90% We were never given the details. 00:14:39.030 --> 00:14:42.990 align:middle line:84% We were given some documents, just a piece of paper, 00:14:42.990 --> 00:14:46.450 align:middle line:84% an Excel printout showing several hundreds 00:14:46.450 --> 00:14:49.943 align:middle line:90% of millions of investment. 00:14:49.943 --> 00:14:51.360 align:middle line:84% Because now, with hindsight, I can 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.240 align:middle line:84% say that maybe at that moment in time 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.185 align:middle line:84% we had come across something we shouldn't have seen. 00:14:58.185 --> 00:15:02.130 align:middle line:90% We discovered two cases of bugs. 00:15:02.130 --> 00:15:07.470 align:middle line:84% The bug was put drilling the roof of the office of Libero, 00:15:07.470 --> 00:15:10.830 align:middle line:90% and putting down the bug. 00:15:10.830 --> 00:15:12.780 align:middle line:84% We had asked the gendarmerie to investigate. 00:15:12.780 --> 00:15:15.060 align:middle line:84% But we sent the report in, we never 00:15:15.060 --> 00:15:17.370 align:middle line:90% got a response to the report. 00:15:17.370 --> 00:15:19.590 align:middle line:84% A verbal response was, well, the bug 00:15:19.590 --> 00:15:22.980 align:middle line:84% was in a wall connected to another apartment. 00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:25.847 align:middle line:84% We can't go into the other apartment. 00:15:25.847 --> 00:15:27.930 align:middle line:84% The other apartment still belonged to the Vatican, 00:15:27.930 --> 00:15:31.350 align:middle line:84% so I understood what the issue was. 00:15:31.350 --> 00:15:34.740 align:middle line:84% Lots of people were sort of sat there 00:15:34.740 --> 00:15:37.020 align:middle line:90% thinking what happened here? 00:15:37.020 --> 00:15:39.750 align:middle line:84% Did he discover something he wasn't meant to discover? 00:15:39.750 --> 00:15:42.870 align:middle line:90% Did he upset powerful people? 00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:47.970 align:middle line:84% How could an initiative which began by the Vatican trying 00:15:47.970 --> 00:15:53.580 align:middle line:84% to say, look, we're modernising, we brought in someone from 00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:59.100 align:middle line:84% outside to look at what we're doing and make sure everything 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:04.140 align:middle line:84% is completely in order, and then a couple of years later that 00:16:04.140 --> 00:16:07.980 align:middle line:90% person is forced to resign? 00:16:07.980 --> 00:16:11.490 align:middle line:90% Looked quite odd. 00:16:11.490 --> 00:16:14.670 align:middle line:84% This office, controlled by Cardinal Becciu, 00:16:14.670 --> 00:16:17.640 align:middle line:84% was making quite a lot of different investments. 00:16:17.640 --> 00:16:19.770 align:middle line:84% I mean, it ended up investing in and financing 00:16:19.770 --> 00:16:22.500 align:middle line:84% 'Rocketman,' the Elton John film. 00:16:22.500 --> 00:16:24.360 align:middle line:90% 'Men in Black' sequel. 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:28.140 align:middle line:84% You have the power of appointing people to key positions. 00:16:28.140 --> 00:16:31.290 align:middle line:84% You are also in charge of a vast amount of money. 00:16:31.290 --> 00:16:34.380 align:middle line:84% The power of that role comes from the fact 00:16:34.380 --> 00:16:38.392 align:middle line:84% that you're really the person who is running everything. 00:16:38.392 --> 00:16:40.350 align:middle line:84% The one which has really got the most attention 00:16:40.350 --> 00:16:41.975 align:middle line:84% is this London property, because that's 00:16:41.975 --> 00:16:45.790 align:middle line:84% where they say they lost so much money. 00:16:45.790 --> 00:16:47.740 align:middle line:84% One of the interesting things to watch 00:16:47.740 --> 00:16:49.450 align:middle line:84% has been the progress of the Vatican's 00:16:49.450 --> 00:16:51.160 align:middle line:84% financial institutions through its inspections 00:16:51.160 --> 00:16:53.200 align:middle line:84% by Moneyval, the Council of Europe's anti-money laundering 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:53.920 align:middle line:90% watchdog. 00:16:53.920 --> 00:16:58.360 align:middle line:84% Moneyval is, if you like, the guarantee that you can show 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:01.240 align:middle line:84% to the rest of the world that you are a credible financial 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:06.069 align:middle line:84% centre, that your banks, your way of doing business is 00:17:06.069 --> 00:17:08.150 align:middle line:84% something that other jurisdictions can have faith 00:17:08.150 --> 00:17:08.650 align:middle line:90% in. 00:17:31.015 --> 00:17:36.730 align:middle line:84% In our view this domestic risk presented by individuals 00:17:36.730 --> 00:17:41.500 align:middle line:84% in middle to senior positions, who were, for whatever reason, 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:45.970 align:middle line:84% able to act in a way outside of rules for their own personal 00:17:45.970 --> 00:17:52.030 align:middle line:84% benefit, we were concerned that that hadn't been sufficiently 00:17:52.030 --> 00:17:56.050 align:middle line:84% recognised as a risk by the authorities. 00:17:56.050 --> 00:17:58.210 align:middle line:84% Broadly speaking, the way the financial structure 00:17:58.210 --> 00:18:00.400 align:middle line:84% of the Vatican works, you have the Vatican Bank, 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.810 align:middle line:84% which is sort of quite famous around the world for things 00:18:02.810 --> 00:18:04.102 align:middle line:90% that have happened in the past. 00:18:04.102 --> 00:18:08.740 align:middle line:84% But that is very separate to APSA, which is the Vatican's 00:18:08.740 --> 00:18:10.910 align:middle line:90% institutional asset manager. 00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:13.450 align:middle line:84% So APSA sort of manages large portfolios 00:18:13.450 --> 00:18:15.370 align:middle line:90% of property around the world. 00:18:15.370 --> 00:18:16.810 align:middle line:84% Then in the case of the Secretary 00:18:16.810 --> 00:18:19.060 align:middle line:84% of State, the part of the Vatican 00:18:19.060 --> 00:18:21.370 align:middle line:84% which Becciu was in charge of, that 00:18:21.370 --> 00:18:24.340 align:middle line:84% was managing what's called Peter's Pence, which 00:18:24.340 --> 00:18:27.040 align:middle line:84% is a sort of day in the year, where 00:18:27.040 --> 00:18:29.170 align:middle line:84% the faithful, the Catholic faith around the world, 00:18:29.170 --> 00:18:31.855 align:middle line:84% donate money to the Catholic Church. 00:18:56.930 --> 00:18:59.430 align:middle line:84% The Church has a saying which is, ecclesia semper reformanda 00:18:59.430 --> 00:19:01.260 align:middle line:84% est, the Church is always reforming. 00:19:01.260 --> 00:19:03.510 align:middle line:84% I think it's reforming now, and that's not always 00:19:03.510 --> 00:19:06.280 align:middle line:90% a painless process. 00:19:06.280 --> 00:19:12.040 align:middle line:84% It's really too early to tell if this trial marks a turning 00:19:12.040 --> 00:19:13.150 align:middle line:90% point or not. 00:19:24.267 --> 00:19:26.100 align:middle line:84% I don't know that we can predict an outcome, 00:19:26.100 --> 00:19:27.630 align:middle line:84% but we can definitely expect those 00:19:27.630 --> 00:19:29.550 align:middle line:84% that there will be some kind of result, 00:19:29.550 --> 00:19:32.370 align:middle line:84% because you don't go to all of this trouble 00:19:32.370 --> 00:19:35.730 align:middle line:84% if you don't intend to see it through to the end. 00:19:35.730 --> 00:19:37.350 align:middle line:84% I think what the Vatican is dealing 00:19:37.350 --> 00:19:42.690 align:middle line:90% with now is an epochal change. 00:19:42.690 --> 00:19:44.760 align:middle line:84% One of the most interesting dynamics at work 00:19:44.760 --> 00:19:46.650 align:middle line:84% here under the Francis papacy is that he 00:19:46.650 --> 00:19:49.200 align:middle line:84% was elected as an outsider and was expected to bring 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:50.400 align:middle line:90% an outsider's perspective. 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.950 align:middle line:84% And I think to a great extent he's remained an outsider, even 00:19:52.950 --> 00:19:54.900 align:middle line:90% in his own Vatican. 00:19:54.900 --> 00:19:58.120 align:middle line:84% The old way of doing things no longer works. 00:19:58.120 --> 00:20:02.190 align:middle line:84% And so this is a situation where the Vatican is adjusting, 00:20:02.190 --> 00:20:05.890 align:middle line:84% somewhat painfully, to a new reality, 00:20:05.890 --> 00:20:07.410 align:middle line:90% a new set of circumstances. 00:20:07.410 --> 00:20:09.870 align:middle line:84% What goes on in Rome is known everywhere. 00:20:09.870 --> 00:20:11.917 align:middle line:84% The same global media environment 00:20:11.917 --> 00:20:14.250 align:middle line:84% which has changed the way governments operate everywhere 00:20:14.250 --> 00:20:16.650 align:middle line:84% is now changing the way the Vatican has to operate 00:20:16.650 --> 00:20:19.170 align:middle line:90% and think about itself. 00:20:19.170 --> 00:20:24.060 align:middle line:84% The people who are optimistic say that this is the biggest 00:20:24.060 --> 00:20:26.700 align:middle line:84% step that's ever been taken, and that this 00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:28.740 align:middle line:84% is going to change the entire way business 00:20:28.740 --> 00:20:30.390 align:middle line:90% is done inside the Vatican. 00:20:30.390 --> 00:20:34.800 align:middle line:84% The pessimists say, this is a huge and still unreformed 00:20:34.800 --> 00:20:40.230 align:middle line:84% institution, where this is only one small part of a hugely 00:20:40.230 --> 00:20:43.020 align:middle line:84% complex situation, and that much, much more 00:20:43.020 --> 00:20:45.050 align:middle line:90% needs to be done.